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diggindeep
LOL Monte that is my video.

Are we talking the one with the Apex vs Simplex + w/5X9½ DD coil?

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diggindeep
The reason you don't know the settings is because I posted the information and review about the video on Detector Prospector. Simplex was in Park 2. There isn't any mode/setting on the Apex that is going to improve it enough to compare with the Simplex on separation. The problem is the Simplex wearing the 11" coil still outdoes the Apex in separation and is pretty good on depth too.

You used the Simplex + in Park 2? Depending upon the location I am hunting I will generally use the 3-Tone Park 1 mode first, then the 2-Tone Beach mode and then the 2-Tone Field mode in that order, most of the time. Sometimes I like the VCO enhanced Field mode but favor the Beach mode that doesn't use VCO, and the audio Tone for high-conductors is like the Mid-Tone of the 3-Tone Park 1 mode and I like it.

After 9½ months of using the Simplex +, mostly with the stock 11" DD coil, I have been favorably impressed with its separation ability. I had an Equinox 800 in April and it couldn't match the Simplex + with it's round 11' DD coil in separation. Of course back then I didn't have the 2.76 update for the Park 1 mode, either. I updated that first Simplex + I got in mid-November to 2.77 on Tuesday at my oldest son's house. I keep the standard 11" DD on that unit for use on a beach, wide-open park or sports fields, or to hunt a plowed field, pastureland or rangeland.

My 2nd Simplex +, that I bought the first of June from our dealer friend, Kickindirt, came with the 2.77 update, I keep the mid-size 5X9½ DD mounted on it, which is my more often used set-up. It does a very good job of separation, and also shows itself well for working in modest iron contaminated sites. I sure hope a smaller-size coil is introduced soon.

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diggindeep
I just did another video that I will post on Detector Prospector with the NBT and Apex with iron audio off. I will admit it does do better but not enough to make it useful in a trashy spot.

Yes, the Apex will likely do a bit better w/o the Iron Audio activated.

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diggindeep
I run iron audio on and zero disc with most all my machines and non of them have the issues Garrett has with their iron audio.

It would maybe make it nice for everyone everywhere if we had one set standard for mode or function description. 'On' or 'Off' makes a lot of sense and is universally understood. But we do see a lot of other words used to describe a function that might be different from a terminology used by a different manufacturer, and then things start to get confusing for some. For example, several months ago I was in a discussion with a group of people, most with several seasons of detecting under their belt and some at it for only a couple of years, and the majority had at least 3 detectors or more in their vehicle or at home. It got to be interesting when someone stated their detector had such-and-such a function or setting, and they were then asked to explain it or what the terminology meant.

For instance, a couple of them had an XP ORX or Déus and the term 'Reactivity' came up in a setting discussion. I asked "What is Reactivity, and what dos that word mean?" That got interesting. One fellow had a Garrett AT Max and another an AT Pro so I made it a point to bring up Garrett's Iron Audio function, and that almost headed to total frustration until is was both explained and then demonstrated. Naturally we had some back-and-forth discussions about Double-D vs Concentric coils, and then some chat about he differences between terms like 'Quick-Response' and 'Fast Recovery' and 'Separation' and ..... well, you get the idea.

And since we are on the Garrett Metal Detector Forum, and this particular topic came up that addresses Discrimination and Iron targets and a Garrett term for a function they called Iron Audio, I'll point my finger at the Garrett R&D folks and probably Marketing people, if they got involved, for not assigning this unique function a better name.

Let's look at several different metal detectors as we consider common Iron targets, such as nails, and better understand what Iron Audio really has been, for decades, to the point of what it is today, or at least how most everyday 'average' Hobbyists might understand it to be:

Question: Do the Tesoro Inca, Silver Sabre, Bandido, Pantera, Bandido II µMAX or Silver Sabre µMAX µMAX have Iron Audio?
Answer: NO. Why not? Because at their minimum Discrimination setting they are still above the ferrous conductivity range, therefore there is no Audio response from typical Iron.

Question: Do the Tesoro Compadre and Mojave, White's Classic III SL and IDX Pro and MXT, and Teknetics T2 have Iron Audio?
Answer: YES.. How? Because if their Discrimination level is reduced to the absolute minimum, they are then Accepting ALL Ferrous and Non-Ferrous targets, therefore, they DO produce an Audio response to common Iron. With all of these models, and the T2 set for 1-tone, they all produce only ONE audible Tone for ALL targets, Iron or Non-Iron. Only 1-Tone, but it is still an Iron, Audio response.

Question: Do the Fisher F44 or F19 and Teknetics T2 or Omega, or the White's MX-5 or MX-7, or the Minelab Equinox or Vanquish, or Nokta / Makro Racer 2 or CoRe or Relic of Simplex + or Anfibio, or the XP Deus or ORX, and especially now the Garrett AT Pro or new Apex .... and many, many more makes and models have a specific Iron Audio Tone?
Answer: YES. The majority of the newer models the past couple of decades not only Accept the Iron conductivity range with a minimum Disc. setting, but they incorporate circuitry design to either assign a Lower Iron Audio Tone for Iron and a Higher-Tone for non-iron, or they add more than just 2 Tones, sometimes having 3, or 4, or 5 or other numbers to assign different audio tones to conductivity ranges above the ferrous/ non-ferrous break-point.

Question: Do most of the popular models manufactured today and for the last few years also have a separate adjustment for the loudness of ferrous targets called Iron Audio Tone Volume?
Answer: YES. Not all of them, but even recent new models have now been 'updated' to add a separate adjustment control for the Volume of the Tone loudness assigned to the Iron Audio conductive range.


So I feel they selected a bad title for this particular function. Andrew, you stated:

"I run iron audio on and zero disc with most all my machines and non of them have the issues Garrett has with their iron audio."

If you are using a Simplex + in the default Field or Park 1 mode, they have no Notch Disc. segments rejected and therefore you are Accepting all Iron range targets and that means there is Zero Discrimination, and that model produces a Low-Tone Iron Audio response .... and you can adjust the Iron range Volume as well.

With the Garrett Apex, all modes use some amount of Discrimination, except the ZERO Disc. mode (unless you manually reject some) and therefore, if using the ZERO mode you have Accepted all ferrous and non-ferrous targets. You can go to the settings and adjust the Iron Volume level for targets that fall in that Iron Audio Tone range.

Therefore, all you need to do with an Apex is:

Select ZERO mode and you automatically will hear an Iron Range target and it is assigned a Low-Tone audio.

Select the Iron Volume setting and adjust the Volume or Loudness you want for Iron Audio range targets.

Start hunting.

There is no need to press the Iron Audio 'button' because you have already Accepted all Iron targets based on your ZERO Disc. mode selection. And the poorly-named feature that button accesses will not function as designed because it only works for targets in a Discriminated range, and you haven't Discriminated. Instead, it makes the ZERO mode work kind of in reverse and produces a loud report on ferrous targets.

I think they could have simply used a bold '?' and called that button-access feature 'Ferrous Check' or anything other than Iron Audio.

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diggindeep
The problem with Garret is their performance in iron has always been subpar and the Apex is no different. Iron next to a good target pulls the ID so far down even a high conductor barely makes it into the iron/very low conductor range most of the time. Hopefully a 5 x 8 coil will make it better but I doubt by much. The Apex has OK depth but it still is no match for the Equinox 6" coil and I suspect the Vanquish with the 5 x 8 will probably out perform it as well.

I have to agree with you that most Garrett detectors since the early '90s have not been the best pick for hunting in a densely iron contaminated site. Many makes and models among their competitors haven't been, either. But some of the detectors I've owned have been really decent urban Coin Hunting models. Not everyone hunts in a nasty iron contaminated site, and most Hobbyists tend to Disc. out Iron and sometimes even more.

Those that get out of the city and come hunt the types of iron plagued remote sites you and I might wander into will quickly understand what we are talking abut. Most of the time, smaller-is-better when it comes to isolating smaller size good targets in amongst a lot of iron trash, and I'm hoping they make a smaller round-shaped coil of about 4½" to no more than 6" for the Apex.

I'm only starting day number four this morning with the Apex. I am finding it to be a better Garrett model than I have used in the past three decades when it comes to taking on common Iron nail type littered sites so the overall performance, for me, seems to be improved ... and headed in the right direction. A good smaller-size coil just might help the Apex perform even better in a dense ferrous littered site. It's offered at an affordable price to encourage newcomers to get into the sport, and do so with a decent, above average detector. I have a few more open areas to search to compare it in-the-field depth of detection, and while I am not seeing bragging depth right now, it is still 'acceptable' depth compared with mot detectors in its MSRP range.

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diggindeep
I will admit the Apex is fun to use, looks good, feels good and has some great features. I will probably actually hang onto it just for the ergonomics alone. I have nothing against Garrett, I've owned many of their machines. But in this day and age they really need to up their game in the performance department. If they bring out a AT Apex and the only difference is waterproof, they will be disappointing a lot of people.

And there is the magic word ..... 'fun!'

The Apex really is a 'fun' detector to use, and I keep detectors around that are in that 'fun' category, as reflected in my signature below. I enjoy using each of them, and the Apex is a really nice fit for me. I was hoping they would have incorporated some differences in recovery speed in the different Mods, like Minelab did with the Vanquish 54o, and that could have been a help for some hunting applications, and possibly helped with separation. But I am glad they ditched that annoying bell-tone audio for higher-conductive coins, eliminated the delayed response, and kept some of the strong points in their packaging design. The Apex w/6X11 DD coil is a very light-weight and comfortable unit to use, and it just looks good. The control housing is smaller-size and two-tone with black and a good yellow-family color that is much better than th Ace series models.

Matter-of-fact, I still believe thy erred by associating the Apex with the Ace series. It is much, much different in the way of performance.

Okay, it is turning to daylight and I'm off for more Apexing!!

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"
Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product ReviewsI'm now 'back home' in Farr West Utah monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com 503-481-8147Detector Outfit: A selection of my chosen makes and models, with the best coils mounted for the tasks I'll take on.F-19 * F-5 * Racer * Racer 2 * V-540 * Relic * Silver Sabre µMAX * Bandido II µMAX * XLTPinpointers: Garrett AT Pro-Pointers .. Headphones: 'Hornet' .. MS-3 Z-Lynk .. ML-80 *** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***