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Todd, did you use one of the two described stacks of silver coins?

December 25, 2018 06:34AM avatar
Most detectors, when properly tuned and Ground Balanced, won't have a problem with a single silver US 50¢ or $1 coin, or even two of them when stacked together. The purpose of using this test scenario is to check a detector's performance for use when Cache Hunting where we might encounter a smaller amount of lost or hidden high-conductive silver coins that are stacked. All touching as that will cause a bigger challenge for detector performance, and a group of big silver coins would all be in contact if hidden in a glass jar or other non-metal container or a cloth or leather bag. This would be different from them being scattered, even very close to each other but separated by dirt, mud, sand, rock, etc. It is done to duplicate some smaller silver coin caches I have searched for.

So the test sample should be 5 silver Halves on top of a silver Dollar, or six silver Dollars, and in both cases have them stacked, then be sure to GB over adjacent metal-free ground.


Quote
Timbertodd
I put both of my detectors to this challenge. There is so much iron trash in my yard I opted for one of my raised garden beds as the test location. First up was my Nokta Relic with the 9.5"x5" coil. I ran it in 3 of the preset programs.
Di2 sensitivity at 85
Di3 sensitivity at 85
All metal
To perform a 'clean' and unimpaired 'test' it is good to do what you did and select a raised garden bed that is metal-free. I have twelve raised 4X8 garden beds and have used them at times for the same reason. However, I also place a test sample on the floor in my house that is away from the aluminum heater vents, but has ferrous screws and nails to contend with. Just the same, when I am out hunting somewhere, to include a ferrous littered ghost town, I just randomly set a test sample on the ground w/o checking for any nearby masking trash. More of an 'all natural' in-the-field test.

After reading your reply last evening I did another test comparison using my 5-H/1-D stack here in my den, and I used my two Nokta CoRe and two Nokta Relic models, plus checked out another 'as-new' Relic I just received yesterday afternoon. I used the 5" DD and 5X9½ DD open-frame coils on my two Relic devices, and checked out the newer Relic with the 5½X10 DD and 5½X10 Concentric coils.

I used Di2 with Sensitivity at '95' as well as reduced to '80', and Di3 with the Sensitivity at '99' and also at '80.' Disc. in both modes was set at '05' where I have it saved.


Quote
Timbertodd
In Di2 and 3 I had a solid enough hit at about 8" that I would have dug the target. It did give somewhat of a double beep like a pulltab as I passed over the target. Above that and it was a choppy signal that sounded more like trash to me.
You pointed out, even unintentionally, three audio-related problems we can have with some challenging targets.

Both the CoRe and the Relic demonstrate similar performance behavior:

• "solid enough hit": If you place a single silver Dime, or Quarter or Half or Dollar coin on the ground and sweep over it at about 3" to 4" or even with a coil out 6" to 8" away, you would expect to get a single, clear and very clean-sounding hit. A good solid response would be expected, and that's even with a few scattered piece of trash in the area to hamper performance. But when you hear a "solid enough hit" response you have to ask why it wasn't a good, clean solid hit? What is meant by 'solid enough?' Just that it was enough of a good response to recover the target?•

Some detectors will not produce a solid response, not a 'solid enough' response, or even any response at all! Most typical detector operators, those being Hobbyists, are searching for good, solid hits. They often start to question, or even ignore, those 'iffy' or 'so-so' responses, especially if they're in some nails or a lot of rusty tin or other trash targets. Then they walk away from the questionable response and only go after the very repeatable and good-sounding targets.

• 'a double beep like a pulltab': A "double beep' is usually the result of:
1.. sweeping over an elongated Nail or other piece of straight wire or similar object.

2.. It is also caused by two targets that are positioned very close to each other and a detector coil is swept across them and you hear a
response from one coin, then there is a very fast recovery and you can hear the second coin, producing a Beep-Beep effect.

3.. Sweeping cross-wise across a coin on-edge.

4.. Sweeping across a target with the search coil positioned too close to the object.. Search coils should be swept about 1½" to 2" off-the-ground or not worked too close to the soil or to targets. The 'Double-Beep' effect can also result from a test piece being positioned too close to the search coil and that causes a back-reading or errant response from the effect on the EMF being too close to the search coil.

Usually, a pull-tab isn't going to produce a 'Double-Beep' unless the operator is working the search coil on or too close to the ground, and to eliminate that response we simply need to raise the search coil an inch or so. And that's were most pull, tabs are going to be located, on the surface or just barely out-of-sight and shallow. Desired coins and rings and other targets can also produce this 'Double-Beep' effect when they are too close to the search coil.

• 'a choppy signal that sounded more like trash to me': And those 'choppy' or 'broken-up' or 'erratic' target reports Do sound a lot like troublesome trash and that causes many people to walk away from a good target ... because it didn't sound good. So, you have to ask, why would some detectors make a 'choppy' or 'erratic' or 'broken' type response when the target isn't a piece of trash or positioned in an awkward or too-shallow orientation to the coil? In this case, it is due to the problem of the stacked, high-conductive desired targets AND /OR the detector's settings, especially the Ground Balance function.


Quote
Timbertodd
The target ID was hitting 99 and would drop to 94-95 closer to the coins. I experienced about the same in all metal with the exception of no double beep.
This suggests to me you were not using a full set of stacked silver coins but only two or three. It could also have been due to trying to get a better response and unintentionally trying to control the search coil presentation, such as making a very tight or controlled slower sweep.

In every test I have done with my own personal four Nokta FORS series models, plus two newer units, or the Makro Racer or Racer 2 or Nokta Impact, they will produce a 'choppy' or 'broken' sort of ''solid enough' response and not a clean and crisp audible hit, and the visual TID will also be inconsistent. I have experienced similar inconsistent results with models such as a Fisher F19 or Teknetics T2, and some brand s virtually nothing.

More often than not, the numeric VDI report might have some higher-end numbers anywhere from '92' to '99' but there will also be other responses that produce a jumpier VDI read-out that might be in the teens to 20's or 30's or other numbers and jump back-and-forth with the higher-end readings. A visual response that is closer to what we often get from things like Bottle Caps or pieces of rusty tin.


Quote
Timbertodd
With the 5" coil and identical settings I lost about 1" in depth in Di2 and 2" in Dis. I also could not get a target id # above 4" in Di3. Al metal was hitting at 7". All 3 programs gave me similar target id numbers as the other coil.
Again, if using a complete stack of higher-conductive silver coins, you are going to notice a loss of detection depth when you use a smaller-size search coil, so no difference in that resulting performance. Reduced Sensitivity or use of a smaller-size coil will both result in some loss in depth-of-detection.


Quote
Timbertodd
Next up was the Tesoro Vaquero with the stock 8"x9" coil. Sensitivity was at about 9 and I ran the discrimination between the 10-11 o'clock position (notch or 2 below nickle). This is where I normally run it. I had a decent signal at 7"-8". Above that and it was just a chirp. Out of curiosity I ran the disc. to pulltab and it drop the detection depth to 6"-7".
Again, it is not uncommon to see a loss-in-performance such as impaired depth-of-detection when we increase the Discrimination. That's typical.

But with your Vaquero and the 8X9 Concentric coil you did mention "I had a decent signal ", and that was different than the audio response from the FORS Relic and is the type of audible 'hit' we would expect to get from such a very conductive stack of valuable silver coins.


Quote
Timbertodd
I switched to the 6" coil and with the same settings I hut the target at 6"-7" and with the disc. moved up to pulltab it dropped to 5"-6".
Once again, the anticipated result of using a smaller-size search coil which naturally makes a smaller-size EMF to use.


Quote
Timbertodd
I super tuned with both coils but the detector wanted to chatter. I did notice though that the target signal was stronger while super tuned though.
By 'Super-Tuned' I take it you were referring to increasing the Threshold level which would enhance the perceived target responses 'loudness' on the deeper positioned coins. It can, as you noted, cause some audio 'noise' because that is in effect and improper control setting for peak performance.


Quote
Timbertodd
All in all I am happy with both detectors performance. With more experience with both units I could probably eeck out a little more depth.
Thanks for throwing this challenge our way Monte.
I enjoy throwing out various Test Scenarios because they can be an educational tool. They help us learn how a detector might perform based upon how the circuitry was designed, and it can also show us how we can errantly adjust the settings of a detector.

I found my first hidden 'cache' in 1967 when I was not using a Metal / Mineral Locator. I was just visually searching in crawl spaces and out of the way places in an old house and looking behind boards and other stacked objects. In that case it was a non-metal container of nothing but silver Walking Liberty Half-Dollars all tightly packed together in that container, and enough to fill about a 1½ quart jar.

The next search I did for a silver hoard was in late '71, and my first contract search was also for buried containers of silver coins in '74. On through to the mid-'90s I mostly used a Threshold-based All Metal mode for contracted searches, but there have been times I have relied on the motion-based Discriminate mode. In those cases I also was not using any, or just very little, Discrimination as I wanted to hear everything I could to include some ferrous targets. The hidden caches were sometimes in unknown containers so I had to listen for iron or ferrous-type metal containers.

If you used your Relic and all coils and then your Vaquero and all the coils you have for it, and you adjusted the Discrimination of both detectors to be low enough to Accept an iron nail, and if you properly adjusted the Ground Balance and worked all the coils across a stack of 5-Halves on 1-Dollar at a distance of about 5" above the stacked coins, which of the two detectors is going to produce the best, cleanest, non-choppy audio response? I am positive it would be the Tesoro Vaquero.

If you do this quick comparison again and agree with me about the Vaquero producing the better audio response, post here and let me know and I'll give you one more simple step to learn how/why the Vaquero does better than the other, or really why the Relic doesn't do as well.

Merry Christmas!

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Fisher:(2), Nokta-Makro:(4), Teknetics:(2), Tesoro:(2), White's:(1)
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*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***
Subject Author Views Posted

confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Monte 419 December 23, 2018 06:00AM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Druid 63 February 13, 2019 08:01PM

Drew, detector tests on Silver stacks, and for WTHO's.

Monte 77 February 14, 2019 11:13AM

Re: Drew, detector tests on Silver stacks, and for WTHO's.

Druid 67 February 14, 2019 11:20AM

White's 6.59 kHz search coil favorites.

Monte 75 February 14, 2019 01:04PM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

SvenS 148 January 20, 2019 10:00PM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Onearmwilly 153 January 19, 2019 01:41PM

Jason, 'Thank You' for contributing the results you had.

Monte 148 January 19, 2019 06:14PM

Re: Jason, 'Thank You' for contributing the results you had.

Onearmwilly 105 January 21, 2019 08:47PM

I have also tested quantities of coins in Jars, Boxes and Bags.

Monte 140 January 22, 2019 05:51AM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Remfire 166 January 01, 2019 05:29PM

Roger, 'Thank You' for the test reply.

Monte 149 January 01, 2019 09:40PM

Re: Roger, 'Thank You' for the test reply.

Remfire 146 January 02, 2019 12:16AM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Rich (Utah) 142 January 01, 2019 06:40PM

Is It All About Recovery Speed? Here are my Silver Cache EQ800 results.

Rich (Utah) 258 December 26, 2018 02:10AM

► INFORMATIVE READ: Rich's results with an Equinox 800.

Monte 227 December 29, 2018 04:33AM

► Monte's results with his 9 different models.

Monte 189 December 29, 2018 11:36AM

Re: ► Monte's results with his 9 different models.

RickUK 158 December 31, 2018 06:42AM

A few of my Test Details -

Rich (Utah) 162 December 29, 2018 07:36PM

Rich(Utah), here are the results of a Teknetics test a fellow asked for.

Monte 154 December 30, 2018 06:59PM

Teknetics Mark 1 results . . . .

Rich (Utah) 150 December 31, 2018 08:15PM

Rich(Utah), 'Thank You' for the information.

Monte 139 December 31, 2018 11:35PM

The Old Mark 1 . . . .

Rich (Utah) 142 January 01, 2019 12:23AM

Ooops, I forgot about sensitivity. . . .

Rich (Utah) 147 December 30, 2018 06:47PM

Rich, I understand and I understand.

Monte 150 December 29, 2018 11:55PM

Will your detector BEEP if you swing over a Silver Coin Cache?

Rich (Utah) 160 December 24, 2018 05:33PM

Comments and questions.thinking

Monte 164 December 25, 2018 08:16AM

Is Recovery Rate directly related to this Problem ?

Rich (Utah) 142 December 26, 2018 07:12PM

Rich(Utah) wondered: "Interested to know your thoughts here. "

Monte 164 December 26, 2018 10:34PM

Don't see much interest from others on this Monte. N/T

Rich (Utah) 172 December 28, 2018 07:37PM

Re: Don't see much interest from others on this Monte.

RickUK 144 December 29, 2018 11:05AM

RickUK, I appreciate your input.

Monte 159 December 29, 2018 12:23PM

A quick reply.

Monte 170 December 29, 2018 03:22AM

Re: A quick reply.

Druid 154 December 29, 2018 06:20PM

Drew, sorry, but no I haven't used a PI on this test scenario.

Monte 110 December 30, 2018 04:34AM

Re: A quick reply.

RickUK 153 December 30, 2018 02:20AM

Re: Don't see much interest from others on this Monte.

Hombre 194 December 28, 2018 08:25PM

Stack 5 Silver Halves on 1 big Silver Dollar and your Outfit would:

Monte 183 December 28, 2018 08:58PM

Re: Stack 5 Silver Halves on 1 big Silver Dollar and your Outfit would:

Druid 179 December 29, 2018 06:21PM

You will soon find out.smiling bouncing smiley

Monte 159 December 30, 2018 04:41AM

Re: Stack 5 Silver Halves on 1 big Silver Dollar and your Outfit would:

Hombre 179 December 28, 2018 09:24PM

Re: Comments and questions.thinking

Druid 173 December 25, 2018 01:25PM

Answers for you, Drew.

Monte 160 December 26, 2018 07:52AM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

Timbertodd 150 December 24, 2018 03:46PM

Todd, did you use one of the two described stacks of silver coins?

Monte 157 December 25, 2018 06:34AM

Re: Todd, did you use one of the two described stacks of silver coins?

Timbertodd 148 December 29, 2018 01:22PM

'Thank You' Todd. And those 6 silver dollars were naked?

Monte 139 December 29, 2018 02:21PM

Re: 'Thank You' Todd. And those 6 silver dollars were naked?

Timbertodd 155 December 29, 2018 03:21PM

Re: Todd, did you use one of the two described stacks of silver coins?

Timbertodd 147 December 25, 2018 08:26AM

5 should work but 6 is what I use to match 6 coins in the Half & Dollar stack.

Monte 139 December 26, 2018 06:59AM

Re: confused smiley Have you tested your detector(s) for Silver Coin Cache detection?

D&P-OR 194 December 23, 2018 11:09AM

Yes, they didn't. ... or ... No, they did.

Monte 194 December 23, 2018 04:32PM



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