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Back to you, ... and I have two Concentic coils for you to test.

March 09, 2020 02:43AM avatar
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glabelle
Quote
Monte
The difference in performance, or lack of performance, is only in the circuitry design and not the search coil size or type.
Thus I agree with the first part of your statement, but disagree with the latter part being that it is a Double-D design.
Monte

Sorry, Monte, I must disagree with that all encompassing statement. I was talking about target separation performance.
You took the tail end of that paragraph, and my statement was regarding the mentioned brands and models, all with 5" DD coils and hunting or testing in Iron Nails. That comment was because all were using their own 5" DD coil, so coil size, shape and type were not a factor. The only thing left was the different model's circuitry design.


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glabelle
Specifically I'm talking about the parallel nail test with a target in between. I have yet to see a DD coil pass that test in the vertical (N-S) direction on any detector! To prove it has nothing to do with electronics, I can demonstrate this with the Nokta Impact. Using the 7" concentric coil, it passes easily. With the 5" DD coil, it cannot! The 5" is smaller - one would expect better physical separation of targets, but it is not the case. And as I theorized it is the broader shape of the DD field, front to back, encompassing more iron than the CC coil, masking the coin. BTW, the lowly old MXT Pro with 5.3" Eclipse (concentric) does a decent job on that test as well.

I used an Indian Head penny, which is a slightly more severe test than the nickel. The half-dime, I'm sure is tougher (I'm getting one Monday).

So I stick by my statement that the coil design has everything to do with performance of a detector re: target separation. You've preached for years, the merits of smaller coils for better separation. I say the coil design is also a consideration..
Yes, the MXT Pro w/6½" Concentric coil can handle a lot of 'testing' scenarios well, and that is partly due to the circuitry design as well as the search coil size and configuration. Matter-of-fact, I prefer the 6½" Concentric coil to Double-D's like the 'Shooter' or 6" Detech DD or 6X8 SEF on the MXT Pro, or the 7" Detech DD offered by White's on the MX Sport or MX-7.

As for the Impact, my new unit should be delivered this coming Wednesday, with both the 5" DD and 7" Concentric coils. I enjoyed using the 7" Concentric as a "general purpose" coil on mine before it was stolen, and really liked how the 7" Con. helped handle a big percentage of the rusty tin at the old sites I enjoy hunting. A near-perfect match-up for general applications, and that duo will join my Minelab Vanquish 540 w/5X8 DD to ride-along as my Daily-Use detectors and also serve as 'Cross-Over' / 'Scouting Units' for me If I get into very heavily littered Iron debris sites with only those two models, I'll have the smaller 5" DD to mount on the Impact.

And Yes, I agree, that search coil size and type CAN have a lot to do with 'target separation.' And some detectors, due to their circuitry design, might just have an edge in performance over other detectors compared side-by-side, with some using a Concentric coil and some using a Double-D. It's a happy blend of the right detector and circuitry design with the right search coil size, shape and internal configuration.

Tests using different coins will make it easier or more difficult to get a desirable response, that's true. I use an Indian Head Cent, or modern Zinc Cent, on my Nail Board Performance Test simply because it was an Indian Head I spotted on the ground between those four Iron Nails. I then used a silver Half-Dime on that particular 'test' just to present a more challenging situation for a detector to handle. Much thinner and narrower than a One Cent coin.

I used a US Nickel between the two parallel Iron Nails simply because that's what the fellow used in his 'testing' of a few models and I wanted to come close to duplicating that. I could swap a Penny for the Nickel, but it suffices as-is. The key factor in that test is how close the Iron Nails are to each other and to the 5¢ coin. (See a post I'll make later today about some Iron Nails 'tets' I'll have at the WTHO for folks to check out with their detector and coil choices.)


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glabelle
This month's Western and Eastern Treasures has a review of the Anfibio Multi. (10 pages long, BTW!) The author states (about the 7" concentric) "There are several top hunters who have stated that this coil will pick out targets in iron that no other detector they've used can see". I've seen others make similar comments.
Yep, I read it, start-to-stop, a few times.

We'll note that he didn't mention 'who' those "top hunters" are, nor did it mention what other makes and models and coil sizes they were comparing performance with. Also, it didn't refer to any in-the-field testing done side-by-side. But' I will add my personal opinion here because I happen to like the 7" Concentric coil with any Nokta / Makro models for use as a 'general-purpose' search coil. The one that I feel is a primary-use coil for urban Coin & Jewelry Hunting. But like everything, it does have it's limits.

And since you are talking about Iron Nails and Separation, I didn't see Clive mention anything spectacular in his lengthy article about him using the 7" Concentric for those type places. However, he did make the following statement in the article:

I found the 9.5 x 5'' to be a great
gold jewelry coil— super sensitive
in 20 kHz— a great edge machine,
and again, very, very sharp in iron.

It’s easily the most effective detector
set up I’ve used for these carpet of
nails type conditions.


Note that he is referring to the 5X9½ Double-D coil as being, what HE describes, as the most effective detector set-up to handle his interpretation of a "carpet of nails" condition. He's welcome to come on down to a WTHO with his Anfibio Multi and 5X9½ DD coil and join us in Toano and a few other very challenging Iron Nail infested places to see how it 'unmasks' good targets in places that I consider to be "a Carpet of Iron Nails.". That falls in the category of providing 'separation' which is what you say you are looking for in search coil selection and detector behavior.


Of course we all enjoy different hunt site challenges, and for me, the very Iron littered ghost towns, homesteads and many other early-era human activity sites can be quite a pain to deal with, especially with any amounts of Rusty Tin. But Clive hunted a very old-use Park that had to provide him with interesting discarded or otherwise lost debris. He stated this:

For me there’s nothing
better than seeing if a
machine can come up with
something at the toughest
proving grounds one knows.
This old site was where the
cars were fixed going back
to the 1870s, if not before.


A site like that, where cars were fixed going back to the 1870's or earlier, could certainly present some issues! Cars back 150 years or more would have been steam-powered contraptions designed to operate off-rails. They lacked glass windows or all the plastic and aluminum that is used in cars we can relate to. Those were just a lot of metal with even bigger-size metal for the steam-powered engines and all the mounting pieces. I think there would be better places to select, but none-the-less he didn't mention a specific coil he used for those sites

He did mention the 7" Concentric coil, but that type is one with two inner coil windings required. One for Transmit and one for Receive. He didn't seem to know the right description of a search coil because he described it as follows:

The Mono coils offered
include an 18 x 18 cm (7'')
that’s very highly regarded
by both beach and relic
hunters.


'Mono' means one or singular, and those are search coils used on a BFO or a PI types detector. Not a traditional TR type device. So, some of what I read in that detector review was quite different from how many product tests have been done in years past by other long-time evaluators, and some things I read, like this about a 'mono' coil, are simply wrong..


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glabelle
One other piece of data, the AT Gold with 5" concentric passes this nail test. Of course, like all other detectors, with its larger DD, it does not.
That would get into the search coil 'size' can have a bering on performance, and not just the 'type' of inner winding design.


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glabelle
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Monte
Let's take a quick look at a test sample on the extreme opposite of some Iron Nail tests and use my 'short-stack' of US Silver coins. 5 Walking Liberty Halves on top of a Silver Dollar. And let's just use a 5" DD size on a top-dollar Fisher F75 and Teknetics T2, and a similar size and shape 5" DD on the lower-priced Fisher F44 or Teknetics Omega 8000 like I enjoyed Coin Hunting with. Which of thee four models from the same manufacturer, FTP, will produce a really solid audio response and a decent visual TID display on the stack of Silver Coins? The F44 and Omega 8000. What's the main factor providing the difference in performance? The circuitry design, and not the size, shape and type of coil.
Monte

As to this test, the results would be detector design dependent. I doubt the coil design has anything to do with this - assuming you haven't overloaded the detector.
Well, here's where we can both learn something based of search coil size and type, if the detector's circuitry isn't part of the issue.

You have the Teknetics G2+ which is the same as the Fisher F19 but in a different configuration package. And you only have the 5X10 elliptical DD, I presume, and small round 5" DD.

I had to put an extra Vanquish coil in my Accessory Coil Tote late last night and remembered that I have two brand-new search coils I could send over your way that work on the G2+. You can evaluate them and report how well those coils perform, and I can just get them back from you later or at the WTHO. They are a round 4" Concentric coil, and a round 7" Concentric coil that should be a good comparison against the round 7" Concentric on the Impact and similar 7" Concentric on the Anfibio.

I could mail them off today and you'd probably hav them on Wednesday or Thursday at the latest.

I'd be interested in the results you get with them on the G2+, especially since I am a big fan of the 7" Concentric coils.

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Detectors: Vista 'X' / Vanquish 540 / CoRe, Relic & Simplex + / Bandido II µMAX & Silver Sabre µMAX / XLT / ORX
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*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2020 04:59AM by Monte.
Subject Author Views Posted

Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

tabman 207 March 06, 2020 07:27PM

Thanks For All The Great Info!

tabman 135 March 07, 2020 07:15PM

"Flagship?" ... How about 'Most Satisfying?'

Monte 157 March 07, 2020 12:47PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

Kickindirt 150 March 06, 2020 09:33PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

tabman 144 March 07, 2020 05:27AM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

Hombre 126 March 19, 2020 11:29AM

My reply as we get to the CoRe of the matter.winking smiley

Monte 101 March 07, 2020 03:50PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector? Attachments

OregonGregg 137 March 07, 2020 08:02AM

Gregg makes a very strong case thumbs up I also have a CoRe. N/T

UtahRich 97 March 07, 2020 04:25PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

Kickindirt 103 March 07, 2020 11:20AM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

glabelle 118 March 07, 2020 09:15AM

My reply, and an oversight in your conclusion.

Monte 108 March 08, 2020 09:10AM

Re: My reply, and an oversight in your conclusion.

glabelle 110 March 08, 2020 12:19PM

Back to you, ... and I have two Concentic coils for you to test.

Monte 119 March 09, 2020 02:43AM

Re: Back to you, ... and I have two Concentic coils for you to test.

glabelle 101 March 09, 2020 08:23AM

Hard CoRe

UtahRich 123 March 07, 2020 04:29PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector? Attachments

OregonGregg 131 March 07, 2020 01:51PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

glabelle 128 March 07, 2020 03:02PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

OregonGregg 95 March 08, 2020 06:11AM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

glabelle 99 March 08, 2020 06:52AM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

OregonGregg 123 March 07, 2020 03:51PM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

glabelle 126 March 07, 2020 07:40AM

Re: Which Is Nokta Makro Flagship Detector?

Hombre 141 March 06, 2020 08:17PM



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