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Dealing with a stack of high-conductive silver coins is interesting.smiling smiley-confused smiley-sad smiley

June 23, 2020 05:04AM avatar
PART 1: Picking my favorites for what I am hunting for.

All my life I have enjoyed hunting.. Big game, small game and the feathered critters. I also don't like snakes ... two footed or slithery types. I enjoy my travels to high mountain areas, desert wastelands, farmland or places with good bodies of water. All manner of environments where I can find the game I'm after, or maybe be prepared for the surprise of something unexpected. I have lost a lot of strength and mobility and have had to trim and adjust my Firearms Outfit so I have models I can still use, knowing that a good assortment or variety of them will handle my needs, based upon where I like to hunt and what I'm likely to chance upon.

Just in this last year I have had to part with most of my semi-auto handguns because I can't work the slide on most of them, keeping only one Ruger 9mm for concealment purposes, a dinky Ruger .22 LR, and a squirrel and rabbit and grouse hunting S&W .22 LR. The 'dinky' handgun is concealable but also one to have along when there's a chance I might get into a rattlesnake encounter. I hate snakes, and so does Rikki.

That's for occasional use because most of the time I like a bit more oomph in my favor because snakes can come in a medium to large-size variety, making my 3" bbl. Smith & Wesson or Ruger revolvers, in .38 Spl../.357 Mag., dandy because I can keep some snake-shot loaded and ready, or use a mix of snake-shot and defensive loads.

Ever been on a 2½ mile hike in the western Oregon woods at midnight and followed by a growling, close-by cougar? I have. I've also been awakened a couple of times when bear came into camp and once into an open-sided cabin. Those shorter 3" bbl. revolvers have also helped me rest comfortably in some rest areas or out-of-the-way pull-outs on some long-range travels when I needed to grab some sleep. It's the other kind of snakes I like to be prepared for, too.

The last two months I've had to sell off my shotguns because I just can't bird hunt any more, not with the imbalance if I let loose of my cane, plus the shoulder and neck injury have limited that mobility. But I do have a few rifles on-hand that I can shoot from a sitting position. A Ruger .22 LR for squirrels, rabbits and popping the heads of grouse to hunt-up some dinner (legal in Oregon). My lever-action Winchester in .357 Mag. for deer hunting and a few other 4-footed edibles. A custom .223 / 5.56 mm shell-chucker for coyote hunting and other applications, as well as my Ruger PC-9 carbine for an assortment of plinking, fun, hunting or other times of need. Naturally, a selected assortment of favorite ammunition for each caliber chosen for my wants and needs and to be best suited for the environments I plan to be in.

It's always good to have an assortment of what works for me, and what is best suited for what I am likely to, or potentially able to, chance upon. I know some choices are going to be overpowering for the smaller game I am after, while picking a smaller caliber might not get me the range of the others, but will work a lot better for the smaller areas I need to aim for and hit with less disruptive impact. Choice is a good thing, and picking what works best for what I am after and where I want to hunt is also a personal decision I get to make .... based on experience and likelihood of finding what I am after.


PART 2: Picking my favorites for what I am hunting for.

Since I was 15, I have enjoyed metal detecting.. New Coins, Old Coins and Trade Tokens. I also don't like trash ... ferrous or non-ferrous types. I enjoy my travels to high mountain areas, desert wastelands, farmland or places around good bodies of water. All manner of environments where I can find the keepers I'm after, or maybe be prepared for the surprise of something unexpected. I have lost a lot of strength and mobility and have had to trim and adjust my Detector Outfit so I have models I can still use, knowing that a good assortment or variety of them will handle my needs, based upon where I like to hunt and what I'm likely to chance upon.

Just in this last year I have had to part with most of my heavier detectors because I can't work favorite sites with most of them, keeping only one Nokta CoRe, Nokta Relic, DeepTech Vista 'X' and XP ORX for the most challenging Iron debris, a proven Tesoro Bandido II µMAX and Silver Sabre µMAX for tot-lots and an assortment of daily encounters, and a Minelab Vanquish 540 Pro Pack and Nokta / Makro Simplex + for fringe-areas, scouting, and open-area searches. The V-540, Simplex + and a Tesoro I like to have along when there's a chance I might come upon any renovation work or other hit-it-now encounter.. I like to be prepared.

Those are for occasional use because most of the time I like a bit more oomph in my favor because I prefer older places with Iron Nails and other debris that can come in a medium to heavily-littered challenge. That makes my Nokta CoRe or Nokta Relic, with their dinky 'OOR' DD or 5" DD coils dandy because I can work in and around the heavy brush or challenging debris and building rubble for the best results..

Ever been on a hunt in the western Oregon woods where overgrowth is very challenging? I have. I've also been confronted with a lot of discarded rusty tin cans, mixed with an array of nails and assorted junk around a logger's or miner's camp and get into some cellar holes and other places where they discarded a lot of things, but also lost good keepers in their daily activities.. Those smaller-coil detectors have also helped me wok handily in some tough, out-of-the-way sites on some long-range travels when I needed to us the best detector and coil possible. It's the challenging kind of places I like to be prepared for, along with the casual hunting areas that we can visit daily..

The last two months I've had to sell off my heavier and awkward detectors because I just can't handle them well any more, not with the imbalance if I let loose of my cane, plus the shoulder and neck injury have limited that mobility. But I do have a few detectors on-hand that I can easily handle. A Minelab Vanquish 540 casual hunting most parks and grassy sites as well as low-to-moderately littered ghost towns (a lot are in Oregon). My 'proven-performers' in the Nokta CoRe and Relic for the most challenging of dense ferrous annoyance with their smaller coils. An impressive DeepTech Vista 'X' and XP ORX for other times when Iron debris is very challenging, as well as other applications, plus my Nokta / Makro Simplex + for a lot of urban grassy areas along with wide-open plowed fields and the like with the 11" DD coil. Naturally, a selected assortment of favorite search coils for each detector chosen for my wants and needs and to be best suited for the environments I plan to be in.

It's always good to have an assortment of what works for me, and what is best suited for what I am likely to, or potentially able to, chance upon. I know some choices are going to be overpowering for the smaller targets I am after, while picking a smaller coil set-up might not get me the depth of the others, but will work a lot better for the tighter areas I need to concentrate on with less disruptive impact. Choice is a good thing, and picking what works best for what I am after and where I want to hunt is also a personal decision I get to make .... based on experience and likelihood of finding what I am after.


Part 1 and Part 2 both address the issue that not all choices available will handle all of our needs. Some picks just will not do as well as others. The same applies to the post below. Now, let me try to answer the different key points:


Quote
Dan'o
Could someone help me wrap my head around why this is so difficult for most detectors to hit?
I'll try, but it gets into several different things all at the same time. Such as the particular detector's circuitry design. If Ground Balance is 'preset' or 'controlled' by design, or if Automated or Manual GB can counter any issues. Operating Frequency can also be factored in to some degree. Search coil size and 'type', be it Concentric or Double-D.


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Dan'o
I can understand how lower frequencies can and do aid in this but not so much with the rest of the variables.
You think so? Yes, we generally agree that a lower Operating Frequency might have an advantage when it comes to responding to a stack of high-conductive silver coins. I'll use my 'short-stack' as an example. That's 5 bare-metal Walking Liberty Halves stacked, touching, on top of a Peace Silver Dollar. Using their 'stock' search coil or a typical accessory coil, and let's put them at 2-Tone or 3-Tone mode, here are some results I have found:

Minelab Vanquish or Equinox in Multi-IQ or E-Trac or CTX-3030, both in their FBS function ... No audible response or a very broken, erratic audio and no VDI read-out of an jumpy and inconsistent display. Change an Equinox to the right Single Frequency and you can get a good audio and visual read-out.

Fisher F75 or Teknetics T2 at 13 kHz, Makro Racer 2 at 14 kHz, Nokta FORS CoRe at 15 kHz or FORS Relic at 19 kHz and most of the time you'll get no audio response or just a broken and inconsistent audio, and the visual VDI will have some high readings, low iron-range readings and many in-between. Yet grab a lower-cost Teknetics Omega 8000 or Fisher F44, both operating at about 7.68 to 7.8 kHz, and you get a lock-on VDI and good, solid high-tone audio report.

How about a White's MX-7 at 14 kHz? With the stock 950 or 6½" Concentric coils, a lock-on '94' VDI and repeatable audio response. But mount the 7" DD on an MX Sport or MX-7 and the VDI is jumpy and audio is also erratic, simply by changing search coils and no settings at all.

Some of those models have automated GB but no manual GB while others offer both options. If adjusted for most local ground mineral, you get the above results. But, what changes are being made with the different models when you use the GB adjustment? I spoke with the lead service tech at Teknetics / Fisher and, as I expected when I discussed the GB of the T2, it is mainly functional in the All Metal mode. The Discriminate mode is preset internally using two trimmers. Some other models are also preset or controlled by design to have a higher GB setting to eliminate false signals from a too-negative GB in the Disc. mode.


Quote
Dan'o
Silver Sabre micro max, Bandito ll micro max, Vaquero and the Outlaw all hit it fine with just about any coil.
They will all perform better with a Concentric coil than with a Double-D design. Also, that Silver Sabre microMAX responded well because it happened to have a good, functional, preset GB. The other three all have a manual GB and, if they work well, it's because they also have a functional GB setting.

You can take any of these three and check out the performance, so let me suggest the Bandido II µMAX. Keep in mind that, 'by design,' most Tesoro's use a somewhat positive off-set for the Discriminate mode as they reference the All Metal mode GB setting. By that I mean that if you adjust the GB to be just 'spot-on' in the All Metal mode, the Discriminate mode GB is going to be somewhat Positive. If you 'Power Balanced' the detector to adjust the GB for peak performance in the silent-search Discriminate mode, it would result is a slightly negative GB in the Threshold-based All Metal mode. Since I mainly hunt in the Disc. mode with a Tesoro and seldom the All Metal mode, I generally 'Power Balance' my Tesoro's so the motion-based Disc. mode will be close to spot-on for peak performance.

Adjust the GB with the Bandido II µMAX to be close to 'spot-on' in the All Metal mode with the Discrimination adjusted to the minimum setting. You can use a 'short stack' of 5 Silver Halves on a Silver Dollar and it will give a good 'Beep' as you sweep over it. Now, take ONLY one Silver Dollar and wave it past the search coil at about 3" or so in the Disc. mode. Slowly increase the GB control clockwise, to make it more positive. Increase the GB while waving the Silver Dollar past the coil and 'STOP' when you get to the point where the Silver Dollar is just breaking up to going silent.

At 10 kHz or 12 kHz or 14.? kHz, a Tesoro Disc. mode's GB is offset somewhat positive from All Metal GB, and you just increased the GB to the point where you lost a positive response from a large, high-conductive Silver Dollar. I have seen some Tesoro's loose a slightly lower-conductive Half-Dollar or Quarter or even a silver Dime when the GB control was increased to that point or to the maximum manual GB position. I am talking about single coins and not a stack of high-conductive specimens. The stack of coins makes the total mass a very high-conductive specimen. The only change made was the GB setting for the Discriminate mode.


Quote
Dan'o
The only other detector I've tried that hits them solid is the Deus but you have to turn the GB down from actual GB obtained and again the lower frequencies really help.
I have hit the stack of silver with a Nokta Impact when the Operating Frequency was shifted to 5 kHz, but it was jumpy and inconsistent at 14 kHz and 20 kHz. I have used other detectors that also hit on the Silver Stack well, but many that do not. It is a very challenging test due to the very high conductivity, but most of the time the reason they don't is more related to a GB issue, with Frequency stepping in as a 2nd reason..


Quote
Dan'o
I ground balanced the Deus at 85/84 in my front yard and the only way to hit them was with the 9" X35 coil on 4khz. Other than that I had to turn the GB down to 80 on 7 khz and sometimes it worked on 11 khz but going to 17 khz meant I had to turn the GB down even further. The lower I went the better it sounded. Only on GM Power did I get a proper VDI.
The problems are that we should not need to adjust a detector to try and give a good hit on a stack of silver coins. Instead, a detector / coil combination should be adjusted for peak performance at a site's ground mineral make-up and not misadjusted just to tinker with hitting on a stack of silver coins. That would result in an improper GB and poor, noisy performance afield.


Quote
Dan'o
As a mater of fact, raising the coil around 8" or so gave me a digable signal where 2-4" would give me iron grunt and full VDI readings. I only tried it with the stock and custom programs with no other changes than the GB and frequency. More testing needed.
IF, and I say IF the detector is adjusted and GB'ed to be functional for the existing ground mineral condition so as to be useable for general searching, then you could test a stack of large-size Silver Coins. If it isn't properly adjusted to be useful, the coil height isn't an issue. If all settings are properly adjusted and the search coil lifted a good distance off-the-ground, the main change you'd experience is less mineral signal needing to be processed or having an influence on the EMF.


Quote
Dan'o
I tried the Fors Core, Fors Relic and the Simplex+ with no success - although I didn't think to lower the GB on any of those units. I'll go back and try lowering it with them. I suspect they'll hit it with the lower GB - based off of what I saw with the Deus.
The Deus is designed differently than the Nokta CoRe, Relic and Simplex + and both groups have their own strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn't anticipate much difference if all are properly GB'ed for the particular site. The best thing to do is learn what all your different makes and modls can do for you, what their limitations might be, then grab the detector and coil you feel best suited for the site conditions, challenges in the way of trash , and able to work well.


Quote
Dan'o
What is it about the Tesoros that allow them to hit the stack without GB adjustment. I did not adjust it after the initial GB and would be interested knowing the effects of doing so, both up and down.
The primary reason is related to the Ground Balance setting for the search mode.


Quote
Dan'o
I'll do this again when I have more daylight and time and if I find anything interesting, I'll share it.
Do it in daylight so you don't lose any sleep worrying about it. Not all your detectors will provide you with the deepest-seeking performance on a larger-size object. Not all of your detectors have a really good coil or circuitry design to work in and around a very dense contamination of Iron nails and other good-target masking ferrous junk. Not all your detectors will be expected to respond well to those challenging stacks or tight clusters of high-conductive silver coins. No different that going hunting for game, I need to consider the terrain, the challenges I face ,and have to pick the right tool (rifle, handgun or detector) and accessory (ammunition or search coil) that is best suited for the task at hand.


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Dan'o
I don't imagine that anyone would come across such a stack (guess you never know) but my interest is in the understanding of the thing.
You are correct, I believe, that the likelihood of encountering a Cache (a large quantity of intentionally hidden money) or a Stash (a small amount and small-size group of hidden coins) is far less likely than it used to be. Caches are often associated with outdoor locations, such as the so-called 'post-hole bank', etc. The last Cache I located was in November, in NE Portland Oregon, where old homes were being vacated and moved to put in I-205.

A smaller-size hidden Stash was often a more likely encounter, and generally hidden indoors. In a small void in the walls where coins could be dropped. In a secret hiding place based on the home / building structure. Or kept in a small box, jar or other container and periodically moved about to different locations to keep it from being accidently found. Sometimes a 'stash' of coins wasn't a purposeful thing, but resulted from a young child playing with coins. They found a hole or slot around a window frame where they had fun pushing coins through. Often, those unknown locations, to an adult, went unknown and thus untouched as it was just part of 'child's play' but we can sometimes get lucky.

In March of '72 in SE Portland they had moved an entire house off the foundation to haul it away for the coming freeway. I arrived on location the next morning even though it had been raining a lot for several days and, typical Portland, it was likely to do so again. I followed the tire tracks of the transport vehicle as I walked up the old dirt driveway headed toward the foundation, trusty TR in-hand. The driveway was mostly covered with water puddles which I swept my coil over as I walked by .... except the puddle closest to the north-east corner of the foundation. I had a very good 'Beep!'.

After I finished my several-minute coin recovery from the muddy puddle, that kept anyone from seeing coins that apparently fell out of the wall as the home was pulled off the foundation, I was quite pleased that I practiced my regular technique of getting out of my vehicle and turning my detector 'On' and hunting my way to where I planned to start hunting. Many, many times I have come across good targets while going to or from where I wanted to hunt and my vehicle. In this case, I had to swish my left hand around in the murky water as I made coin recovery after coin recovery which took several minutes.

Mostly silver dimes with a few old pennies and a couple of silver quarters in the small, tight bunch of coins that I figured was simply a 'stash' of coins that finally had the opportunity to escape from their hiding spot. It would have been just about where the window would have been, from the direction the removed the structure. No big silver halves or silver dollars, and just fewer than 35 coins in that tight cluster that appeared to all drop freely and about at once.

It doesn't happen often, but it happens. I haven't encountered a hidden 'stash' now since about 1981 .... but I hunt older-use places so I am always alert for that opportunity and visually scan any likely area to check out with the detector I'm using.

Sorry for the long-winded reply. I can not give you one definite reason why ALL detectors that do hit on the Silver Stack do, or why all that don't, don't. All I can tell you is some will, some won't, and we just need to consider operating Frequency, Ground Balance and search coil type and learn which of our Detector Outfit are the better tools to grab for select hunting tasks.

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Detectors: Vista 'X' / Vanquish 540 / CoRe, Relic & Simplex + / Bandido II µMAX & Silver Sabre µMAX / XLT / ORX
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Subject Author Views Posted

Silver dollar with 10 halve dollars on top

Dan'o 59 June 21, 2020 08:59PM

Dealing with a stack of high-conductive silver coins is interesting.smiling smiley-confused smiley-sad smiley

Monte 28 June 23, 2020 05:04AM

Silver dollar with 10 half dollars on top

UtahRich 45 June 21, 2020 10:20PM



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