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To WM6 regarding my expriences and opinions from decades of working in dense iron debris.

April 16, 2018 03:05PM avatar
Just wanted to clarify Oregon Gregg's post and your reply:

Quote
WM6
..... they won't unmask goodies as well as the Nokta/Makro machines.

To clarify Oregon Gregg's comments, he stated the following in that line:

Quote
OregonGregg
I also have the Whites M6 and MXT Pro that I only use two coils with, the Eclipse 5.3 and the 9" Spider coil. These are still great machines, however, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, they won't unmask goodies as well as the Nokta/Makro machines.

Gregg was expressing his findings based on the makes and models he owns and uses, and the types of sites he generally hunts. I like several detector brands myself, to include a few White's models, and I like the Teknetics T2 'Classic' w/5" DD to help unmask keepers in very densely littered sites. But I found the Nokta FORS CoRe performance to be superior to the T2, MX-5 and MXT All-Pro I had in my arsenal at the time, as well as the Fisher F19, Tek. Euro-Tek Pro and a few other models I also had.

I hunt very iron infested sites and I have been working these since may of 1969. That's a long time, with frequent hunting and evaluating every make and model I can get in my hands, and the CoRe bested the others at unmasking. That's not to say they didn't or couldn't, just that they didn't performance as well as the CoRe.

I also added the Makro Racer 2, Nokta Relic, Impact and now the White's MX-7 to my detector line-up because they all work well, balance comfortable with my physical impairments, and to be sure they do very well at unmasking in iron contaminated sites. The MX-7 with either of the smaller coils isn't quite up to the Nokta and Makro models performance but ample in many old sites I hunt.


Quote
WM6
Gregg, you need to stop at time with such unsubstantial hype.
Where such hype is coming from - from Monte-Nokta promo connection?
I know the sites Gregg has hunted where the amount of nails, rusty tin and other ferrous-based debris and non-ferrous make a very challenging environment to hunt. Some are those I was hunting back in '69 and to the present. I don't 'hype' any product, and actually offer my valid, experience-based opinions that others might not agree with.

For example, I have owned several Fisher F75's and at least two or three times as many Teknetics T2 versions. I personally prefer the T2 to the F75 for several reasons, especially in-the-field performance, even though they share equal weight and balance due to using the same physical packaging. I've told Gregg countless times that if I didn't have a Nokta or Makro model in my detector battery I would definitely have a T2 'Classic' and the 5" DD coil. That combination worked well for me and provided very good performance in dense debris environments and unmasked good target fairly well. Gregg doesn't like the design and I am not sure what else, but he hasn't used one enough to learn its strengths and weaknesses.

I don't 'hype' any detector, but I will boldly state the goods and bads/pros and cons of any detector I have used or even those I own and use. No detector is 'perfect' so I use those that work for me and work well at what I need. Gregg has mainly formed his opinions from his own experiences and from observing the results others we know hove with their similar models.


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WM6
I tested almost all Nokta Makro models of VLF detectors on masking too and this hype is simply not able to survive reality.
One topic none of us can all agree upon unless it is clearly defined is just what we each consider "target masking" or "target un-masking" to really be. A lot will depend upon:

• The desired targets we want to find, their size, shape and metal alloy make-up
• The size and type of un wanted trash we are dealing with
• The density of the debris and how many unwanted targets are close to a desired object to cause the target masking we need to deal with.


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WM6
Par example: past week I tested Makro Multi Kruzer (latest and possibly best model from Nokta-Makro house) and checked its unmasking possibilities too.

My standard unmasking test is to take old rusty iron wedge and silver coin on high mineralized testing substrate. After proper GB, Sens is set to Max (except in case of EMI, but Kruzer was stable, so no need for lower Sens).
That is one type of unmasking test anyone can try. In this case, using the wedge is YOUR STANDARD UNMSKING TEST and that 's fine to use one bigger-size hunk on unwanted metal. But for many or most of the iron-plagued sites I search, it isn't the lone bigger object that is a problem, it is all the many nails, and other ferrous-based objects that are plentiful and scattered about in very close proximity.

I have several 'test scenarios' I use that all present different challenges to metal detectors and detector operators. Some detectors are going to out-perform others because that's just how it is. Search coil size and type can also make a lot of differences, both better and worse in performance, depending upon the individual coil and especially the detector it is mounted to.


Quote
WM6
First test step is to filter out (discriminate) rusty iron wedge then put silver coin next to wedge and check possible detection of silver coin (300mm in dia).

Short to say: Makro multi Kruzer was not able to discriminate rusty iron wedge not even at maximum Discrimination setting (at 99).

So maybe it can unmask in promo theory or screen-played video but not in practice (not to say using its notch filter or Iron Audio). Total flop at serious unmasking test.
Forget "promo theory", if you would for a moment, and clarify this:

When you said it would not Discriminate (audibly reject) the rusty iron wedge, did you mean totally reject any audible response and not even hear a 'tick' or 'scratchy, broken audio report?

I started my reply and then took a break to go find an iron object close to the size of the rusty iron wedge you mentioned. I then tried each one of my own detectors on those iron samples, then visited a friend (not Oregon Gregg) and used the detectors they had available.

None of the test models I had were an F75 or a T2, but I am going to try and locate one before our WTHO get-together this coming Thursday and give a try at this 'test.' I did notice that with the three samples I used, that were bigger-size and close to the iron wedge photo you posted, all of them were able to Discriminate the iron samples fine for me. But to clarify, they all handled the big iron ferrous objects as I would expect from any sensitive detector, and at upper Disc. setting, even to maximum Disc. level, I only got a 'ticky' or 'broken-up' audio response with a direct sweep of the object with the center axis of the search c oil crossing the object.


Quote
WM6
For comparison Fisher F75 SE is able to totally filter out (discriminate) same rusty iron wedge at discrimination setting between 14-15 (max F75 Disc settings is the same as with Kruzer at 99). So with clear annihilation rusty iron wedge with Discr set at 15, F75 SE has no problem to soundly detect silver coin put next to wedge.
Well, I am going to try it in the next week or so with a T2 or F75. If either do that well, and can hit on the silver dime while totally rejecting the iron targets to remain silent, then I will be shopping for another new T2 'Classic' and 5" DD coil to put back in my detector battery.


Quote
WM6
So be careful with easy Nokta-Makro hype. Not all are ready to buy it.
Just my personal opinion here, and I have held to this belief for many decade in this great sport, and that is to read and listen to what a manufacturer says or claims about their product, then check it out to prove or disprove it to myself afield.

One thing I have come to admire and appreciate is the fact that the claims made so far by Nokta and Makro haven't been exaggerated or 'hyped' to any degree. The products have all worked for me, and worked quite well and performed up to the standard set by and claimed by the detector maker.

I happen to really like the Teknetics T2 'Classic' but not the standard 11" BiAxial coil. I seldom use any search coil that size, and I never enjoyed the field performance, TID Lock-On or audio Tone ID lock-on, with the 11" BiAxial coils on any T2 or F75. I prefer detector-maker produced search coils over any after-market search coil, and that 's where the T2 fell sort for me. I would have a T2 Classic w/5" DD an d maybe something in the 5X10 DD category, or other practical mid-sized coil. But it appears I am limited to one smaller-size factory coil from Teknetics. sad smiley

I haven't handled the new Minelab Equinox models yet, and it is possible they might do a better job or target unmasking than what is in my current 'Detector Team.' Again, I will be doing several comparisons this next week and weekend on our WTHO here in Eastern Oregon. But it isn't the rusty wedge type trash we are dealing with.

It is a very abundant amount of both ferrous and non-ferrous debris that contaminates these sites. Good targets are very difficult to find because these places have been hunted since the late '60's and early '70s, and especially hard from about '83 thru the late '90s. Most of the easier targets have been found and what we are working hard to find are the bulk of the 'keepers' that are now masked by nails, rusty tin, and all manner of ferrous junk, most of wish is smaller than the rusty wedge you use.

I have and use what works for me at sites where I deal with that constitutes masking trash. I believe that Oregon Gregg also relates the same that he has found hunting the same ore similar sites. I guess if we hunted more of the older era sites you search over there, and if we encountered more bigger and thicker iron, then we might have a different take of what we consider 'unmasking' to be. As it is, the best way I can back my own claims is when I am afield with someone and we do side-by-side comparisons on located targets with their detectors and coils Vs my detectors and coils.

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells
Trading Post

Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
'How-To' help for Coin & Jewelry Hunting, Relic Hunting and Useful Techniques.

'Regular-Use Detector Team' are models from: Fisher, Nokta / Makro, Teknetics, Tesoro and White's
'Specialty-Use Detectors' are models from: Compass, Garrett and Teknetics
Pinpointers: Using Nokta / Makro and Uniprobe Pointers.
Headphones: Using Killer B's 'Hornet' and White's Pro Star and Detector Pro's Uniprobe ... All w/'tank style' ear cups.
Recovery Gear: Using White's DigMaster digging tool and Signature Series pouch.
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand. Models are chosen as desired based on search site conditions.
Some models are assigned for 'Regular-Use' and others are on-hand for 'Specialty Use.'
Additional search coils, mounted on spare lower-rods, are on-hand in my Accessory Coil Tote.


*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***

monte@stinkwaterwells.com .. or .. monte@ahrps.org
(503) 481-8147
Subject Author Views Posted

Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

Monte 490 April 15, 2018 03:18PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

Timbertodd 99 August 15, 2018 05:08PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

jmaryt 113 August 18, 2018 09:35AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

jmaryt 115 August 09, 2018 12:30PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

Albert 328 April 23, 2018 05:13PM

Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

Monte 283 April 24, 2018 08:05AM

Re: Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

Albert 280 April 28, 2018 05:56AM

Back to you, Albert.

Monte 234 May 04, 2018 07:04AM

Re: Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

glabelle 240 April 24, 2018 09:49AM

Re: Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

WM6 278 April 24, 2018 11:36AM

Re: Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

glabelle 269 April 24, 2018 12:07PM

Re: Interesting array of units .. Learning ... and Habits.

WM6 235 April 24, 2018 02:16PM

New Detectors / Old and Trusted

Rich (Utah) 306 April 23, 2018 05:23PM

Re: New Detectors / Old and Trusted

Albert 249 April 24, 2018 07:20AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

WM6 264 April 17, 2018 01:51AM

WM6, I have a question about your Euro Sabre 2.

Monte 312 April 18, 2018 02:15AM

Re: WM6, I have a question about your Euro Sabre 2.

WM6 282 April 18, 2018 05:21PM

Interesting comments on the Tesoro Euro Sabre 2. thinking

Monte 278 April 19, 2018 07:04AM

Re: Interesting comments on the Tesoro Euro Sabre 2. thinking

WM6 280 April 19, 2018 07:33AM

WM6, I appreciate the reply. Now, where to shop ?????

Monte 252 April 19, 2018 08:33AM

Re: WM6, I appreciate the reply. Now, where to shop ?????

WM6 250 April 19, 2018 08:13PM

What metal detector do I own and use?

Rich (Utah) 260 April 16, 2018 07:39PM

Yes, but remember Rich(Utah) that you're going to have another new-to-you detector in a week or so.

Monte 234 April 16, 2018 09:08PM

Another new-to-you detector in a week or so.

Rich (Utah) 218 April 16, 2018 09:27PM

I have these to choose fromconfused smiley

Hombre 324 April 16, 2018 03:09PM

A very good outfit, Hombre, and you have 4 models that I especially like. smileys with diet Dr. Pepper float

Monte 230 April 16, 2018 09:18PM

Re: I have these to choose fromconfused smiley

NWCindy 231 April 16, 2018 06:59PM

My name is Hombre and I have an Addiction . . . . smileys with diet Dr. Pepper float

Rich (Utah) 282 April 16, 2018 05:06PM

Re: I have these to choose fromconfused smiley

NWCindy 263 April 16, 2018 03:23PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

Utah1971 236 April 16, 2018 02:08PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

glabelle 236 April 16, 2018 11:00AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

RickUK 265 April 16, 2018 08:28AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

OregonGregg 261 April 16, 2018 07:34AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

WM6 279 April 16, 2018 09:24AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

Rich (Utah) 254 April 19, 2018 08:46PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

WM6 219 April 20, 2018 05:33AM

To WM6 regarding my expriences and opinions from decades of working in dense iron debris.

Monte 301 April 16, 2018 03:05PM

Re: To WM6 regarding my expriences and opinions from decades of working in dense iron debris.

WM6 233 April 16, 2018 04:34PM

A very true statement, WM6. thumbs up

Monte 207 April 16, 2018 09:47PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

OregonGregg 222 April 16, 2018 12:10PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

WM6 229 April 16, 2018 04:15PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

glabelle 227 April 16, 2018 05:23PM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

WM6 236 April 17, 2018 01:24AM

Re: Survey Question: What metal detector do you own and use?

desertsmith 328 April 15, 2018 09:47PM

Cal, I have a few questions about your outfit.

Monte 218 April 19, 2018 07:29AM

Re: Cal, I have a few questions about your outfit.

desertsmith 223 April 20, 2018 05:20PM

'Thank You', Cal. Now I'll have to download a manual.

Monte 195 April 23, 2018 02:31AM

Monte's 'Regular-Use Detector Team' and assignments.

Monte 276 April 15, 2018 03:43PM



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