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"What ya all think about this?" No clear definitions. No clear examples. Nothing useful.

February 04, 2020 09:57AM avatar
Quote
Kickindirt
Anyways here an interesting read. .... Mostly the main discussion is in carpet of nail situations. good read for anyone interested. What ya all think about this? Your experiences with both machines? I know what machine I will take in the old Relic site type hunting.

Out of interest, and mostly home-bound due to an illness ...being sick of wintry cold and wind and such[/i] ... I spent the last month to get the year started, watching You Tube videos and reading an assortment of Forum Posts or blogs that deal with some of the more common topics that we hear brought up ... frequently.. I concluded that there are just way too many frequently-used terms that do not have a clear and understandable meaning, or are not supported by clear descriptions.

When I started detecting in '65 one of the more common unwanted targets (aka 'trash' or 'junk') was an iron-based Nail. We had some 'modern' trash, such as Foil gum wrappers or larger Foil from discarded cigarette packs, and of course there were the old crimp-on Bottle Caps especially any picnicking site, such as around a bowery or under trees, etc. Then in the early '70s we started to encounter more Ring-Pull Tabs and Screw caps, and since then just a lot more discarded non-ferrous trash.

It's all the non-ferrous junk, especially Pull-Tabs, that got the Discrimination circuitry added to detectors which really increased from the early to mid-'70s to today. Nails? They have been around forever, and with those early BFO's and TR's they were not much of a problem at all. The old Bottle Caps were not much of an issue, either, but as we have 'advanced' metal detector design, dropped down to LF and VLF operating frequency ranges, and then added more detector adjustment features, gone to digitally-designed circuitry, and use more variable Discrimination, we have made Nails, and Bottle Caps, too, more of a problem to deal with and now struggle to get good performance in more Iron Nail challenged sites.

Nails didn't use to be a major problem and they were easily 'classified' or 'audibly identified' and we just hunted and found stuff. When we got started, the units were called Metal / Mineral Locators and that was really kind of a give-away as to what they could do. BFO's weren't too bad and most of the basic TR-s worked quite well in and around a lot of Iron Nails.

±5 years, we'll just call it 1970 and all was well. Minimum issue with Nails or Bottle Caps and similar trash.

1975 we had mainly Discrimination circuitry added and the new world of Ground Balance circuitry. Using most TR-Discriminators caused more troubles trying to find coins and keepers in sites with Iron Nails, and the new GB models signaled positively of both Ferrous and Non-Ferrous so they were no help. In both cases Nails, and Bottle Caps also common in public-use Coin Hunting areas, were more difficult to deal with. We had also seen the progress in changing the names of most of our hobby gear to Metal Detectors.

1980 we had now been using dual-mode VLF/TR-Disc. models for about three to four years and had the newest VLF-Disc. models available for two years and all major manufacturers were scrambling to produce these new motion-based detectors that could cancel the ground mineral and reject unwanted trash at the same time by using a faster search coil sweep speed. The trouble was this new 'advancement' also made it more challenging to handle the problem trash like ... Iron Nails and Bottle Caps or similar ferrous-based junk.

1985 we were enjoying some relief by using good slow-motion, quick-response models for about 1½ years and we could see the start of the new trend for models that were more comfortable and easier to use. They helped us to better hunt in more heavily littered sites, including ferrous junk ... but we still had not cured the illness of Iron Nail, Bottle Cap, and similar man-shaped ferrous junk. There was some effort made to help with annoying Bottle Caps that irritated the urban Coin Hunter, such as White's incorporating 'BCR' or Bottle-Cap Reject in their upper-end model designs. It worked, but there were trade-offs in poor performance if the operator over-adjusted that control.

1990 didn't help us much because we had a new two year old trend to see manufacturers sell detectors with a larger-size standard coil. That made it more difficult to hunt in trashier locations. We also had the start of analog / digital blend circuitry designs, and more 'segmented' Discrimination when Garrett brought out the Notch Disc. detector models. Less operator control of the Discrimination setting by accepting or rejecting segments than a variable Disc. design, but the trend was then started and many followed. It seemed so simple and easier for a consumer to learn, or so they thought.

Of course, with the move to using more digitally controlled circuitry, and with a manufacturer designing some pre-set 'segments' or 'notches' for Discrimination, it all added up to more difficult ability to deal with the problem iron-based junk.

1995 marked an era when we had better digital circuitry models, at least getting started, such as White's XLT and others, but it seemed like the going trend for many manufacturers was to make a more featured and more adjustable detector that would be more accepted by the vast number of Coin & Jewelry Hunters. That was kind of good, if you were one of the more active city-type Coin & Jewelry Hunters here in the USA or even out northern neighbors in Canada (even though their coinage is about as annoying as Bottle Caps)..

But things were starting to change. The metal detector industry, as a whole, here in the USA had peaked from about 1985 to 1990 and it was now starting to slow. There once were a lot of metal detecting clubs in the USA that had sprouted up from the rapid growth in the hobby interest caused by Coin Shooting. Hundreds of clubs, coast-to-coast with several clubs in a small regional area. There were annual Competition Hunts and many had seasonal club outings and other activities. Good membership counts and a lot of regular attendance and all-out fun. So, what happened?

From '95 we had a lot of older members who were passing away or just stepping back from the sport. We didn't see younger folks brought into this hobby. It had been a decade since the top-end metal detectors took a big jump in retail prices thanks to Target ID, Tone ID and other features and many people either couldn't afford it or, honestly, just didn't need it. We can't forget, for those who were around in those 'early days' that in all of the more popular public sites to hunt, parks, schools, parking strips and the like, most of the coins were GONE! We had found them, so hunting got tougher with less good stuff left behind, and an accumulation of more modern trash as people got lazier and discarded more trash. Plus the parks and many places just were not being used as youngsters and others had other things occupying their time.

Oh yes, it was the 1995 era and we saw the rapid growth of ... the Internet!. Common places getting hunted thin, clubs dying off, and with the Internet and so many websites we welcomed mail-order, or internet-order, discounting. Local Detector Dealers also started closing their doors so that meant less visible local promotion of equipment and the hobby in general. And what newer detectors we saw coming out we mainly started seeing more gadgety features, more digital behavior, and more issues trying to handle the Iron Nail and Bottle Cap problem ... as detector prices continued to grow!

But metal detecting had become more of a global market and we were now experiencing a lot of changes in the world of metal detectors and metal detecting. The way so many of the foreign-to-the-USA folks hunted was much different from how American and most Canadian Hobbyists have looked at the sport. They had 'rallies' by organized cubs where members hunted plowed fields, pastures and similar open spaces ... with landowner permission ... for older coins and artifacts from long, long ago. By now, many US detector manufacturers had gone out of business or a few were absorbed and merged, with First Texas Products as an example.

2000 was especially noteworthy, at least to some of us, with few detecting clubs left. 'Local Dealers' just about gone, and detector discounting started to get ugly with little $$ to make, poor assistance from the fewer number trying to see detectors. Some localities closing off schools and parks to metal detecting, or possibly requiring a permit for only a few of them. Park and school tot-lots being changed over to a chipped rubber mat from sand and bark-chip. Far less public use of parks and schools, and therefore far fewer coins and jewelry being lost.

We did see a growth in those who still are active in the metal detecting hobby take a more aggressive move to get into Relic Hunting and that has helped keep the sport alive, here in the US. By the turn to 2000 we had some really good new models here in the US, in the way of performance, such as White's IDX Pro and the 6000 Pro XL that name-changed to XL Pro. Garrett was pushing their GTA, GTI and GTP series with the segmented Discrimination, and other US makers were needing to step it up as the industry, as a whole, was, and is, dying a slow death.

2005 was wake-up time for those remaining in the industry [sizesmall](manufacturers)[/size] and hobby (the consumers) because we noted more world-wide growth in the interest in metal detecting, and more foreign detector manufacturers who were producing newer and creative detectors, and many of those a better balanced offering as well. There were also more new detector designs to bring us lighter-weight and better-balanced detectors, and that was a good thing. In 2006 we saw the rebirth of Teknetics with the completely new design, circuitry and package, with the T2. Soon FTP followed with a new Fisher F75 using the excellent T2 package configuration, and other models. FTP also advanced those two brands with other low to mid-priced models that were also light weight, simple yet functional, especially to cater to the Coin & Jewelry Hunting group here in the USA.

2010 was perhaps an awakening for many who had been in the hobby for a while as well as for newcomers to this sport. What awakening? Well, there are not as many of us 'old timers' around compared with the number of newer detector users, and by this time, except for Tesoro Electronics, almost every detector maker, foreign or domestic, were producing more comfortable detectors to handle, more featured detectors to learn and figure out, and in some cases a few better-performing detectors for the Avid Detectorist. Most seem to be fitting the 'average' Hobbyists market as a Coin & Jewelry Hunting unit, especially on the lower to mid-priced model group.

Moderate to higher-cost detectors were the more advanced and, usually, more versatile models that satisfied dedicated Coin Hunters as well as avid Relic Hunters. We also noticed some manufacturers starting to lower the MSRP to appeal to more of the buying public, and part of that was due to more influence from detector manufacturer's products from foreign makers. One thing we still heard mention of, however, was how the detectors handled Iron Nails. Or perhaps I could say, how many detectors didn't handle Iron Nails very well.

More makes and models from different manufacturers that were being used by serious adventurists in this great sport here in the USA as well as all over the globe. A growth in You Tube videos that helped to promote metal detecting, especially from places like the UK where we could see the makes and models most people were using to hunt those plowed fields and pasturelands for ancient coins.

2015 kind of set the current trend in detectors. Some really terrific makes and models from foreign manufacturers, especially XP out of France and Nokta and Makro out of Turkey, with some more recent offerings from Minelab, with the parent company in Australia. It all came at a time when we had some 'OK' detectors from the remaining USA manufacturers, but for many applications they seemed to be trailing, as a whole. Engineering design and performance from the foreign folks was definitely better in field performance in many ways compared to what was still being marketed from USA brands. It seems they fell behind, with some still selling over-priced and under-featured models, and most just slow to bring their product up to the 'modern edge' detector designs.

2020 has arrived and I know that since the beginning of my enjoyment of this great sport I have owned and used hundreds of detectors. I would have several brands and models in my personal Outfit, and in the last five years I have really done a lot of buying, evaluating, then trading and selling just to trim my Outfit to the most functional detectors that I liked that work for me, where I need them and as I need them for the challenges I face.

Today, half of my Detector Outfit is made up of foreign brand models, and for very good reasons:

• They are lighter, better balanced and more comfortable for this old guy to use.
• They are 'Simple' yet very 'Functional' without a lot of adjustment functions, yet they all provide great 'Performance' for many applications.
• Because they are better designed and more comfortable and work so well, they add more 'fun' back into enjoying this sport.
• And finally, because some of them now provide me with much improved handling and performance when hunting in a dense Iron Nail site.

Half-a-Century ago I didn't have a problem dealing with Iron Nails, but there were other difficulties to deal with in operation due to the ground mineral effect which caused falsing if the coil was raised or lowered from a search height. That's what was required with the TR's and TR-Disc. models of the era. All it took way back then was learning a detector's control settings, knowing it's abilities and limitations, and then use it as best possible to take on the Nails and other things we encounter and educate ourselves on how to get the best performance.

Today, if we want to be successful and handle the ferrous debris challenges we might face, all we have to do is the very same thing:

"Learn a detector's control settings, know its abilities and limitations, and then use it as best possible to take on the Nails and other things we encounter and educate ourselves on how to get the best performance."

I think too many people have not devoted ample time to reading their User Manuals, or working with some test samples to try and learn and understand their detectors. Instead, they ask questions on forums or e-mails or PM's or blogs in the hope that their detector has some sort of hidden abilities to deal with a common trash target .... Nails.

Then to the real problem, we do not have people ask a question and actually describe what it is they need to handle or the actual site challenge they face:

Give me a written reference description, that describes to us all what a "carpet-of-nails' really is? The Pacific Ocean, Lake Michigan, Malheur Reservoir, the Columbia River, Eagle Creek, and the chuck hole in Washington Blvd. are all "covered in water." That's not too terribly descriptive if someone wants to know how to handle fishing the place, or wants to go boating, or just go splash around and swim.

Without the references used to describe something, like I gave, you wouldn't know what I'm talking about if I just had a problem with "covered in water."

So a bunch of people start having a discussion without one of them knowing exactly what the other is talking about, and those kinds of discussions need to have a better description of the challenge, and then should be asking a more specific question about how to handle it with what particular detector.

So I read through it and determined that there was nothing useful to me in those discussions, that also jumped track a few times.

What I do know is this: I hunt a lot of sites where I know I am going to be encountering Iron Nails, and other ferrous debris, quite often. I also know that I have several detectors with different strength and weakness, and I also have learned them and know what they can and can't do in different environments. Which means I know which of my detectors is most likely to provide the better performance when I head out for a day of hunting in an Iron Nail contaminated site. And because I have learned my detectors and know their capabilities and limitations, I don't need to jump into a meandering discussion that isn't well defined or specific and have to deal with some responders who, in my opinion, don't really have a clue what's going on.

Monte

Oh, wait! You wanted a short answer and know what I think? Okay: I think I am well prepared for handling Iron Nails best with my Nokta CoRe or Relic, a Tesoro Bandido II microMAX, my modified White's IDX Pro, or my XP ORX when all of them have their smaller size coils mounted.

I suggest any reader use the same, or try to find something that can do better.


"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Detectors: Vista 'X' / Vanquish 540 / CoRe, Relic & Simplex + / Bandido II µMAX & Silver Sabre µMAX / XLT / ORX
Pinpointers: Pulse-Dive .. Headphones: Killer B's 'Hornet' & 'Wasp' ... White's 'Pro Star'
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand. Models are chosen based on search site conditions.
*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***
Subject Author Views Posted

Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

Kickindirt 238 February 03, 2020 02:08PM

"What ya all think about this?" No clear definitions. No clear examples. Nothing useful.

Monte 155 February 04, 2020 09:57AM

Re: "What ya all think about this?" No clear definitions. No clear examples. Nothing useful.

Kickindirt 120 February 04, 2020 01:07PM

Re: Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

diggindeep 121 February 04, 2020 09:11AM

A couple more comments re: Detectors / Coils / Ferrous Annoyance.

Monte 130 February 04, 2020 05:36PM

Re: A couple more comments re: Detectors / Coils / Ferrous Annoyance.

diggindeep 114 February 05, 2020 08:30AM

Just get rid of the snow and I'll get it planned. N/T

Monte 112 February 06, 2020 03:21AM

Re: Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

Kickindirt 107 February 04, 2020 01:12PM

In dense nails I prefer the CoRe and Relic over the Racer's, Kruzer and Anfibio.

Monte 113 February 04, 2020 10:12AM

A carpet of nails . . .

UtahRich 180 February 03, 2020 11:24PM

Re: A carpet of nails . . .

D&P-OR 114 February 06, 2020 09:08AM

Re: A carpet of nails . . .

OregonGregg 125 February 08, 2020 08:38AM

Re: A carpet of nails . . .

OregonGregg 122 February 06, 2020 08:47AM

Re: brings a detector to its knees.

Kickindirt 123 February 04, 2020 01:19PM

You know what I'll be bringing to Wells

Monte 153 February 04, 2020 04:07AM

smileys with diet Dr. Pepper float N/T

UtahRich 101 February 04, 2020 08:57AM

Re: Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

D&P-OR 160 February 03, 2020 07:07PM

Re: Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

Kickindirt 167 February 03, 2020 08:15PM

Re: Deus Vs Eq 800 in carpet of nails.

Dan'o 154 February 03, 2020 07:01PM



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