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My thoughts on your thoughts.

January 21, 2019 08:04AM avatar
We're discussing this on a Nokta-Makro Detection Technologies Forum so I'll try not to get too pointy with other detector manufacturers, but I'm sure most forum followers and active detectorists can figure out where the weaknesses are.

Quote
jmaryt
monte!
curious! have you contacted the "major players" on this side of the pond, and expressed to them what you would like to see incorporate into
their units, or introduce "new" models?
One problem is trying to figure out just 'WHO' it would be that is an 'actively involved' Owner or company President with the various manufacturers who you can think of who's name is known and who seems to take interest in the consumer-level input? Charles Garrett and Jack Gifford did, but they are gone.

How about this one. Do we know the actual name of one or two of the design engineers who did the R&D on the detector / detectors we are currently using? Just who is or was responsible for making them work as they do, or perhaps who designed it but didn't seem to know what they were doing or maybe even care?

Let's go one further step and ask everyone, which detector manufacturer has a notable spokesperson working for their company who is very involved in monitoring the consumers questions, comments or even ideas on the Internet, which unfortunately the biggest stage we use for product marketing and discussion? What is the name of the spokesperson on the forums or who's name is brought up in open discussions among a bunch of detector users from Garrett? How about the brands from First Texas Products? Who is the often heard individual from White's who gets on the Forums to directly address pertinent issues or maybe announce new product entries?

Not an active detectorist who might just be a very avid user of the product, or a self-employed Distributor or Dealer, but someone who is employed by and works at the particular detector manufacturer's facility. Nope, other than Nokta-Makro Detection Technologies who have Alper Tozan as their senior electronic engineer and the unmatched Dilek Gönülay, Vice President of Sales and Marketing, who is the primary on-line representative for the company, I don't know of any other detector manufacturer, especially with the USA detector makers, who seems to want to stay up on people's ideas.

I only know personally know but one of the design engineers with any USA detector manufacturer today. I know who two or three others are, but I have never personally met them. Yes, I might be one of many out here in the real world who use and understand the detectors we have, or can work with them to discover their strong and weak points for various applications, but the manufacturers don't go out of their way to ask for suggestions or critique their products. Not like the folks at Nokta-Makro.


Quote
jmaryt
..it would think that they should be "tearing" these two open on the work bench to determine if they can "circumvent" patents to compete! ..if these two are as superior as you know they are, american companies should be trying to at least "match" their performance, or better them.. i'm just saying'
Yes, you would think the American designers would want to know how their competitor's product perform and be aware of the strengths and weaknesses, but there are several things in their way.

For one, I have worked with a couple of detector engineers a while back and they kind of set out on a new detector design that is THEIR idea of how a detector should work, often based only on their book learning and the 'how-to' of electronic components. They are not always open to outside suggestions as they progress, and also do not understand what some of us Avid Detectorists really want or need in a serious, very versatile performing device.

Matter-of-fact, I know the pressure for changes can cause a lot of frustrations with engineers. I'll even go back almost 32 years when I was at Compass and they were way behind and trying to get a new model ready to spark some life in the business. The lead engineer was busy working on the Scanner series. They were a really good 'concept' and were the first 'Vari-filter' (3-Filter concept) models to be brought out, and not really followed until White's introduced their new MXT about a dozen years later.

So he was back in the engineering department hard at work, while the company President would get calls in his office from avid detector users or some of the involved dealers or distributors from around the country who would share their thoughts and wishes with him about what they liked or what they wanted in a new detector.

That was fine, until Ron, the President, wandered back to see John, the engineer, and tell him that the folks down around Texas and such wanted a detector that worked like the Fisher 1260X family. Then after calls from other people he told John the guys up around Indiana want to see Tesoro performance. Or a lot of the East Coasters and NE people really like the White's Target ID (the excellent needle meter models). There wasn't much of a request to have anything work like a Garrett who was kind of trailing the pack at the time.

Nonetheless, it was a frequent barrage of "Active users would like it to work This way or That way" which really can get on the nerves of an engineer. They already had their own ideas in mind (even if they didn't detect very much or at all) and you can't make one detector do all the things the other brands and models do because ... well, they just can't.

Even from one manufacturer we have to remember that there is no such thing as a 'perfect' detector, so I always look at the weaknesses and strengths of different models for what they are, then the detector either does or doesn't have a place in my Regular-Use Detector Outfit for the types of site challenges I generally encounter.

So I wondered about this myself during the night after reading your post, and right now, knowing what I know about who the manufacturers have, or don't have, for serious detector engineering, and looking at their strength in the overall marketplace, I only see one USA detector manufacturer that shows real up-to-date models with functional features to try and match the competitor's offerings, or who seem to have the engineering capability to step it up a bit and bring us some improved detector designs.

This has been a slowly dying industry in this country and they are up against some serious challenges from foreign manufacturers, especially those that are providing us with top quality, solidly built and very functional and performance-driven detectors at a reasonable/affordable price

I don't fly, and driving all over takes a while, but even if I were to schedule a conference room and contact all US Detector Manufacturers and invite them to send their design engineers and any spokesmen or even CEO's, and I planned a full day of demonstrations and comparisons, asking them to bring their product models to do some hands-on comparisons, I would be shocked to get any response at all.

I'd gladly demonstrate strong and weak points of various models, and show them the very tough challenges I use to find the best detectors for really serious Relic Hunting in dense nail and other debris conditions. Even point out weaknesses I see in some of their current product offerings, encourage them to give more consideration to smaller-size search coils, especially as a 'standard' coil on most models, and they would each have an opportunity to get up and demonstrate their own product to show how it can, or might, tackle some uncommon challenges.

By 'uncommon' I am referring to real things that occur out in the challenging sites we hunt, and not some simple workbench sample test.

I doubt that any manufacturer would budget the finances for salaries or travel do send anyone. Nor do I think any of them would offer to compensate me for travel expenses to make a drive to their facility to take part of a day to share the performance I get with model that work well for me. Gold Nugget 'electronic prospectors' are not a big share of the market here in the US, and Relic Hunters are in greater numbers but also seem to be overlooked. They keep pushing out "entry level" detectors and up to top-dollar machines targeted more specifically for the average Coin Hunting crowd. Then they try to market what they make as being good for Relics, Gold, and other uses.

I'll just trim my current detector outfit to the lightest weight and best balanced devices with some geared more for Relics and others better suited for typical urban Coin sites, and enjoy the hobby with models that work for me. If the manufacturers aren't awake enough to know or really care what the competition offers or where their offerings fall way short, well, that just how it is.

Monte

"Your EYES ... the only 100% accurate form of Discrimination!"

Stinkwater Wells Trading Post
Metal Detector Evaluations and Product Reviews
monte@ahrps.org ... or ... monte@stinkwaterwells.com
503-481-8147
Fisher:(1), Nokta-Makro:(3), Tesoro:(4), White's:(2), XP: (1)
Killer B's 'Hornet' and White's 'Pro Star'
Note: Detectors are listed alphabetically by Brand. Models are chosen based on search site conditions.
*** All working well today to make memories for tomorrow. ***
Subject Author Views Posted

Hey, Fish-N-ChipsI How are things going with the Anfibio Multi?

Monte 249 January 17, 2019 01:28PM

Re: Hey, Fish-N-ChipsI How are things going with the Anfibio Multi?

Fish N Chips 177 January 18, 2019 12:46AM

Re: Hey, Fish-N-ChipsI How are things going with the Anfibio Multi?

jmaryt 138 January 20, 2019 06:46PM

Just a few comments for you Matt.

Monte 157 January 18, 2019 10:37AM

Re: Hey, Fish-N-ChipsI How are things going with the Anfibio Multi?

D&P-OR 160 January 17, 2019 01:46PM

My feelings about the Relic & CoRe.

Monte 149 January 17, 2019 04:00PM

Re: My feelings about the Relic & CoRe.

jmaryt 150 January 17, 2019 08:05PM

Re: My feelings about the Relic & CoRe.

Timbertodd 133 January 18, 2019 02:34PM

Todd, I think your Relic coil choice is perfect.

Monte 131 January 19, 2019 02:14AM

j.t., some answers about the Relic & CoRe.

Monte 159 January 18, 2019 09:09AM

Re: j.t., some answers about the Relic & CoRe.

jmaryt 124 January 20, 2019 07:23PM

My thoughts on your thoughts.

Monte 145 January 21, 2019 08:04AM

Re: My thoughts on your thoughts.

jmaryt 131 January 21, 2019 02:39PM

j.t. said: "i believe over time,you will see american companies make a stronger effort ...

Monte 140 January 22, 2019 08:18AM

Re: j.t. said: "i believe over time,you will see american companies make a stronger effort ...

jmaryt 139 January 22, 2019 09:48PM

Some obvious signs about manufacturing metal detectors.

Monte 149 January 23, 2019 07:34AM

Re: Some obvious signs about manufacturing metal detectors.

jmaryt 104 February 21, 2019 09:18PM

A few observations and opinions.

Monte 109 February 22, 2019 01:54AM

My thoughts on your thoughts on his thoughts. eye popping smiley

Rich (Utah) 146 January 21, 2019 10:39AM



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